:rose:

 

The time of Jesus is not BC. BC means 'Before Christ'.

Christ lived in the Roman Period.

 

oh yeah, I see that now. It was late. An ancient middle eastern culture anyway. I probably should have just put "of the times". Like I said these are all just my own thoughts. I use very little resources outside of the bible to form them. I do have a Master's degree in "Discovery channel", though. lol I think all of my points on the interpretation of the bible still stand, though.

 

Dave, I really thought that you would have had the decency to admit that what you were saying about the New Testament was nothing more than lies and slander. I don't care that you are an atheist. But I hope that you will think twice before spouting out all of your bullshit to others who are "sitting on the fence". Let them make the division about the bible. You should just warn them of the dangers of orginized religion.

I think that if this discussion had been about organized religion we would have seen eye to eye on it. However it was not. It was about God, spirituality and the bible. The quote below was taken from the first paragraph of my very first post on this thread. I hope that after all of this you can at least respect where I was coming from when I posted it.

In my last post to you, I did not mean to question your intelligence. I am well aware that you are an intelligent individual and I am also aware that you are able to recognize literal devices such as metaphors and similes. in fact you actually pointed out a metaphor in one of the quotes that I had posted about Einstein. I have posted the quote about the "Mystical" below. You see, it is your skeptical mentality towards the bible, that is preventing you from seeing the true meaning of the teachings of Christ. Whereas when you read something from Einstein you are able to distinguish these literary devices.

"The most beautiful and most profound experience is the sensation of the mystical. It is the sower of all true science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead. To know that what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their primitive forms - this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness."
( Albert Einstein - The Merging of Spirit and Science)


The quote below is more clear to his own personal beliefs. I also like the part when he talks about the "Professional Atheist"

I think that by looking at the sources of these two quotes, it gives a look into "The Spirit of Einstein"

"I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being."

Albert Einstein to Guy H. Raner Jr., Sept. 28, 1949, quoted by Michael R. Gilmore in Skeptic magazine, Vol. 5, No. 2

 

Matthew 6:5-15

5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
9 “This, then, is how you should pray:

“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us.
13 lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.’

14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

 

Peter 3:15 -17

But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16 keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. 17 For it is better, if it is God’s will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.

 

:rose:

 

:rose:

 

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:rose:

 

I did write a very long, well thought out reply brazi, but for some reason my computer suddenly died on me right before I hit the 'submit reply' button. Somewhat annoying, but I refuse to let myself get worked up by a computer, hey maybe it was a sign So this will be just a summary of what I wrote before.

I was not ignoring you before brazi, I just feel I have nothing left to add on these topics. I think spirituality is something separate from religion, and it is perfectly normal to feel spiritual without reference to god.

Yes you are correct, science does not disprove god, but for me, that is not a good enough reason for me to solve problems with 'god did it'. It does not add anything of value, in terms of natural explanation, it does not further our understanding of a problem, nor does it advance our intelligence. I would rather spend my life not knowing an answer trying to find out the truth, than take the answers of 2000 year old men, with no knowledge of science, who have nothing more than an uneducated guess.

The bible was supposed to be divinely inspired, God who must have been around for at least 13.7 billion years decides to change his philosophy around 2 thousand years ago, when he realizes things are not going as planned. This god, with his unique understanding of the universe could of told the authors to put in some good natural explanations for things in order to make his book more believable. Instead it is filled with stories that are cruel and absurd if taken literally, or have many thousand different interpretations if the stories are meant to be metaphorical, which in turn has led to many disagreements on the bibles teachings and this has led to wars where human lives have been lost.

In the grand scheme of things it makes more sense to me that the bible is no more than a bunch of fairy tales that have got out of hand. You say I am sceptical when I read the bible, this is true, but I am sceptical of whatever I read. I have an understanding that morals come from both evolution and reasoned civilised debate from within western culture. I'm no biologist, but I understand that it would of been beneficial for our species to do good things for close family and neighbours and in return have these actions reciprocated. Today in our global neighbourhood this continues. I also think modern western society, which has used reason and debate to decide what is moral plays a role too. Now when you read the Old Testament you use these set of morals and for the best part, you can see what it is, a lot of vicious evil stories. However, being a Christian, when you read the New Testament, you put on your rose tinted glasses, use your set of morals, filter out the good bits, and ignore the bad. Now when I brought up some of the bad bits, you gave some loosely based metaphors (some of which were still immoral unfortunately) which could quite clearly be interpreted many different ways.

My apologies on this response, I feel what I wrote before was a lot better, unfortunately I do not have the time to match that response. Anyway I somehow sense the goal posts are about to move again, and given that you are Brazilian and I know how good you guys are with a ball and net, I think it is probably time for me to move on. So chances are this may be my last post in this thread.

All the best.

 

You really didnt get it...

 

Dave, the fact that you take this parable literally only goes to show your own ignorance of the English language and literary devices such as "similes" and "metaphors".

Here is a a brief definition and comparison of both similes and metaphors. This is information that any 6th grader from a first world nation should know. I know that you are an intelligent individual. I am surprised that I have to point out such basic literary aspects to you. Anyway, here is the grade 6 English refresher for you...

(Source: Wikipedia)
"A simile is a figure of speech that directly compares two different things by employing the words "like", "as", or "than".[1] Even though both similes and metaphors are forms of comparison, similes indirectly compare the two ideas and allow them to remain distinct in spite of their similarities, whereas metaphors compare two things directly. For instance, a simile that compares a person with a bullet would go as follows: "Chris was a record-setting runner as fast as a speeding bullet." A metaphor might read something like, "When Chris ran, he was a speeding bullet racing along the track."

As Jesus begins this parable, he clearly uses the literary device of a simile in the very first sentence.He is addressing his disciples and he clearly employs the word "like" to show similarity. This is called a simile, which IS NOT supposed to be taken literally in any kind of literature. Not only the bible.

"Stay dressed for action and keep your lamps burning, 36and be like men who are waiting for their master to come home from the wedding feast, so that they may open the door to him at once when he comes and knocks."

So to any non- skeptical 6th grader, it would be clear that Jesus is making a comparison and uses an example, slaves, from his bronzed aged world to teach responsibility and readiness to his disciples, as the title of the parable so clearly states.

Therefore after acknowledging that the employment of this literary device, a simile, it would be absolutely wrong to interpret the rest of the passage as being meant in a literal sense. The most literal interpretation that one could intelligently make of this parable. is that Jesus is using a simile to compare his disciples to "servants." and "beatings" for punishment. He is clearly telling them to continue to do good even after his death and to stay prepared for his second coming. Perhaps on his return he will update his comparisons, similes and metaphors to suit his modern audience. But for now I can merely take the text which was intended for a bronzed age audience and try to interpret it for the modern times that I live in.

As I have said before, in my own personal reflection, I interpret this passage to be advice for employee/employer relations. This helps me reflect upon times when I have been irresponsible, unorganized or even abused trust that an employer had for me... Simple as that... Whats the problem?

Due to the use of the word "like" in the first sentence of the passage, this parable is in no way advocating the use of slaves or is it teaching people how to treat their slaves. You would have to be a complete illiterate moron to think otherwise!

Dave, if you are unable to admit that this passage is clearly not meant to be taken literally and that slaves are used only as a bronzed age example, our conversation is finished. There would be no point in continuing since you are unable to recognize very obvious and basic literary devices used in the book that we are discussing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deviousdave
I have read the bible, both the old and new testements thank you. And if you really study it, without applying your own completely warped logic, you will see the bible for what it is, A grossly inaccurate history book, full of immoral acts, used to frighten people in order to use christianity as a method of control.
Iam sorry, I didnt mean to imply that you had never read the bible. I just meant that I think that you got those biblical "snippings" from a baised website. I may be wrong. I apologize.

I am sorry that you find my interpretations to be "warped" but I find them to be beautiful and harmonious in accordance to the facts of nature. I am sorry if it does not meet your standards of political correctness.

History books surly don't use similes and metaphor to the extent that the bible does. You would be a fool to consider the bible a history book just as you would be a fool to take a simile literally. It is meant to be a spiritual book not a history book. I am truly sorry that you are not able to recognize spirituality.

The fact of the matter is that an individual's interpretation of the bible, or anything for that matter is based of their own perspective. (btw human perspective is another topic which intrigues me.) You see your attitude before you even open the bible sets the pace for your interpretation of it. Do you get what I mean?

As a long time atheist, one of the hardest things for me to do was to erase the skeptic and sometimes hostile mentality that I had towards the bible and to read it with an open mind and a conscious reflection on my own life. But I can honestly tell you when I was able to achieve this, it had a direct effect on my personal life, as I described earlier in this thread.

I think that you are depriving yourself of a great tool for personal development. I just ask to think twice before trying to deprive others of this "tool".

Paz, irmao...

 

There is nothing in the Bible that a man cannot come to through honest self-reflection on what his duty to his fellow man in the interests of a harmonious society must be.

It is not required for personal development, except, perhaps, by those who lack the mental fortitude to arrive at the conclusions and the discipline and dignity to carry them out for their own sake.

 

Read my post again, you didn't get it. I said:

 

I never once said that it was required. I have just been trying to say that if someone chooses to be christian don't try to put them down for it. And yes some people are weaker then others and these are the people it helps most. And these are the people who also need it the most. If it helps someone's personal development (spiritual development), let them use it. Be happy for them that they have found some kind of path to improve their personality. It in no way is the cruel and evil book that some atheists make it out to be. (Extreme and aggressive Christians is another story.) I totally respect your choice not to use the bible and I just ask that you, as atheists, respect the choice of others. And don't try to tell them that God doesn't exist because it is a silly and time wasting argument.

If you feel that these "on the fence" people are leaning towards organized religion, tell them of the dangers and hypocrisy that is at the very essence of the Church. The passage that I posted above which also contains "the Lord's prayer", Matthew 6:5-15, is an excellent passage to stick in the face of any extreme obnoxious "Christian". It is also great, and easy passage to give to an "on the fence" Christian to to encourage them not to fall for the lies of organized religion. But give the whole "God doesn't exist" thing a rest. If the Christians are extreme, use their own material,the bible, against them. It is a much better argument and it will save a lot of time. Because you don't know. And the bible can be a good personal development tool for some people who need it whether God exists or not.

But you are right. It is not the only tool for personal/spiritual development. But many people are attracted to it due to cultural reasons. If they are using it in the correct way and are not hypocrites leave them be. If they are hypocrites, shove their own material right back in their faces!

P.S Orion, If you could link me to some of those studies on telepathy,dejavu, etc, I would truly be interested in reading them. Non- biased ofcourse.

Paz:rose:

Matthew 6:5-15

5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
9 “This, then, is how you should pray:

“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us.
13 lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.’

14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

 

Its hard for me to see many other ways to intelligently interpret that passage about slaves. I would be very interested to hear an atheists interpretation of that passage about servants. Could you please show me an alternative interpretation. However, you must recognize the clear simile used in the first sentence of the passage. I have already asked Richie the same but hes has not replied, yet.

They are examples made for his audience of the Roman Period ( ) He effectively used them in a way that his audience could relate with. There is not much nature in the dessert. However, the political aspects of life in Judea during the Roman period were overwhelming. Jesus was placed in an early civilization and his teaching reflect the times and politics of those times. However, he in know way supports or endorses the evils of the time. Actually that is why he is there. He tells his diciples to be like slaves. He does not tell them to be like masters... It would have been silly to talk about the sand and grass and spindly little trees while people were fighting and killing each other all around him.

However as I have said earlier, The bible is not the only path to personal/spiritual development and it is important for someone considering spirituality to find a path which suits their own morals and beliefs. If someone wants more clear metaphors to harmony given through nature, I would suggest Buddhism, The political and natural environment which Buddha was placed in was much different then that of Christ. Therefore, logically, the metaphors and comparisons are much different as well. As I have said, I am personally attracted to the rebellious side of Christ. And all the blood and sex makes for a better story. However, I am able to recognize the similes and metaphors used in this story.

First you say it is a history book. Then you say they are fairy tales... These are two VERY different things. Which one is it?

Here is the passage. I would really be interested to see your interpretation. With the recognition of the simile used in the first sentence and in the true context of the bible that Jesus is addressing his disciples. Any alternative interpretation other than the ones that I have given would be great! In fact, I would be interested in hearing anybody else's interpretation of the two passages that we have been discussing.

Thanks,


-Luke 12: 35- 49

You Must Be Ready

35 "Stay dressed for action[f] and keep your lamps burning, 36and be like men who are waiting for their master to come home from the wedding feast, so that they may open the door to him at once when he comes and knocks. 37 Blessed are those servants[g] whom the master finds awake when he comes. Truly, I say to you, he will dress himself for service and have them recline at table, and he will come and serve them. 38If he comes in the second watch, or in the third, and finds them awake, blessed are those servants! 39 But know this, that if the master of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he[h] would not have left his house to be broken into. 40You also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect."
41Peter said, "Lord, are you telling this parable for us or for all?" 42And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time? 43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 44Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. 45But if that servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed in coming,' and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, 46the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful. 47 And that servant who knew his master’s will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. 48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.

 

:rose:

 

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